This is an AI-generated transcript from auto-generated subtitles for the video Stories of Awakening and Wisdom with Leigh Brasington (3 of 4). It likely contains inaccuracies.
The following talk was given by Leigh Brasington at the Insight Meditation Center in Redwood City, California. Please visit the website www.audiodharma.org for more information.
Yeah, another story. So this is a sutta1 you probably have never heard a teaching on. You’re probably not even familiar with this sutta. It’s one of the long discourses. It’s the Payasi Sutta, which is the one right after the Mahasatipatthana Sutta.2 It’s number 10 in the long discourses, but I’ve never heard a teaching on it, let alone taught it. But it’s a story, it’s kind of an interesting story.
I chose it because it gives us some hints of what society was like at the time of the Buddha. I suspect this particular sutta is a late composition. The Buddha is almost not mentioned in this sutta. The Buddha is not a part of the sutta; he does get mentioned by name twice, and that’s it. In this sutta, the leading figure is the Venable Kumara Kassapa.3 This is not to be confused with Mahakassapa.4 Mahakassapa was a very important figure in early Buddhism and was pretty much responsible for the First Council being called after the Buddha’s death and the forming of the Sangha, the coming up with the suttas and the Vinaya5 and so forth. But this is another one of the Kassapas. There are a number of Kassapas mentioned, and this is Kumara Kassapa, or the prince Kassapa. I’m not sure why he was known as the prince.
I’m not going to give you all of the similes in this sutta; it has quite a number. If you want to read the rest of them, it’s available and you can read it. They’re a little, I would say, R-rated for violence. It was a different time back then. But I’ll give you the gist of the sutta and most of what it has to say. And then there are lots of ways these similes can be applied to us today.
Thus have I heard. Once the Venable Kumara Kassapa was touring around Kosala,6 the kingdom of Kosala, with a large company of about 500 monks. He stayed in the Simsapa Forest, north of Setavya. Setavya was the home of Prince Payasi, and this had been given to him by King Pasenadi of Kosala7 as a royal gift with royal powers. Basically, he was the landlord of this area.
But Prince Payasi had an evil view. He thought, “There is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good and evil deeds.”
Now at this time, the brahmans and householders of the town of Setavya heard that the venerable Kumara Kassapa was staying in the forest north of town. And they thought, “This man is supposed to be an arahant.8 It is good to go visit such arahants.” And so they headed out as a group to go visit the venerable Kumara Kassapa.
And as they passed by Prince Payasi’s palace, he saw all these people going somewhere. And he said to his steward, “What’s going on? Where are all these people going?”
“Oh, they’re going to see the venerable Kumara Kassapa. He’s an arahant.”
“Oh, tell them to wait. I want to go along as well.”
And so Prince Payasi joined them because he wanted to debate with the monk. And so they arrived at the Simsapa forest, and Prince Payasi saluted, sat down at one side. The brahmans and householders also saluted and sat down at one side. Then Prince Payasi said to the Venable Kumara Kassapa, “I hold this view: there is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit or result of good and evil deeds.”
And Kassapa replied, “Well, I’ve never heard this view. I will question you about it, and you should reply as you see fit. What do you think, Prince? Are the sun and moon in this world or another? Are they gods or humans?”
“Reverend Kassapa, they’re in another world, and they are gods, not humans.”
“Well, Prince, you should consider there is another world. You’ve just said so. There are spontaneously born beings. There is fruit and results of good and evil deeds.”
“Well, whatever you say about that, Reverend Kassapa, I still think there’s no other world, etc. Have you any reasons for this assertion, Prince?”
“Reverend Kassapa, I have acquaintances who take life, they take what’s not given, they commit sexual misconduct, they tell lies, they use harsh, abusive language, frivolous speech. They’re greedy and full of hatred. When they become diseased and ill and are nearing death, I visit them and say, ‘There are certain ascetics and brahmans who say that if you’ve lived an evil life, doing things like breaking the precepts, then at the breakup of the body, you will be born in a state of woe, perhaps in hell. If this happens to you, you should come to me and declare that there is another world, that there are spontaneously born beings, there is the result of good and evil actions.’ But although they agreed to do that, they did not come to tell me, nor did they send a messenger. Therefore, I say there is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit of good and evil actions.”
“Well, as to that, Prince, I will question you about it, and you shall reply as you see fit. Suppose an evildoer in your kingdom, a thief, a murderer, was caught, brought before you, and you found him guilty, and you ordered him executed. You said, ‘Bind him with a strong rope, take him out by the south gate, and chop off his head.’ Now, the executioners would take that man, and if that man were to say, ‘Excuse me, good executioners, in this village where I live, I have friends, colleagues, blood relations. Please wait until I visit them.’ Would he get his wish?”
“Certainly not, Venable Sir. They would just cut off his head.”
“So, Prince, this thief who couldn’t even get his human executioners to wait while he visited his friends and relations, how can you think that the wardens of hell would allow someone to come back to the human realm to visit you?”
“Well, that may be so, but I still say there is no other world, etc. Why do you say that, Prince?”
“Well, I have other friends who abstain from taking life, from taking what is not given, from committing sexual misconduct, telling lies, using abusive, harsh language, frivolous speech, who are not greedy and full of hatred. And when they are very ill and nearing death, I visit them and I say, ‘Certain ascetics and brahmans declare that those who basically keep the precepts will be reborn in a happy state, a heavenly world. Now you have refrained from doing these things. So after death, if you go to a happy state, would you please come to me and declare that there is another world? You gentlemen are trustworthy and dependable. What you have seen shall be as if I see it myself.’ But though they agreed, none of them ever came to tell me, nor did they send a messenger. That is my reason for saying there is no other world, etc.”
“Well then, Prince, I will give you a parable, because some wise people understand what is said by means of a parable. Suppose a man had fallen head first into a cesspool, and you were to say to your men, ‘Pull that man out of the cesspool, clean him up, give him a shampoo and a shower, put clean clothes on him, dress him in the finest clothes, put a garland around his neck, lead him to my palace, and let him enjoy the five strands of sense pleasures.’ What do you think, Prince? Would that man wish to dive back into that cesspool?”
“No, no, venerable sir.”
“Why not?”
“Well, that cesspool is unclean, evil-smelling, horrible, revolting, and generally considered to be so.”
“In just the same way, Prince, human beings are unclean, evil-smelling, horrible, revolting, and generally considered to be so by the devas.9 So why would your friends who’ve kept the precepts want to come back to the human realm and talk to you? Give up your horrible view.”
“Whatever you may say about that, Reverend Kassapa, I still think there is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there is no fruit of good and evil actions. Have you any reason for this assertion?”
“I have, Reverend Kassapa.”
“What is it?”
“I have friends who keep the precepts and also refrain from strong drink and sloth-inducing drugs. Eventually, they become ill. I go to see them. I say, ‘You’ve kept the precepts, you don’t even take strong drink or sloth-producing drugs.’ They say you will be reborn in a happy state as companions of the 33 gods. Please come back and tell me that this has happened, so I will know if there is another world. But although they agreed, they neither tell me nor did they send a messenger.”
“Well, Prince, I will question you about this, and you shall answer as you see fit. That for which for human beings, Prince, is 100 years, is for the 33 gods one day. There are 30 days in a month for them, there are 12 months in a year for them, and there are a thousand of those years in their lifespan. Now, suppose these friends of yours who kept the precepts and even didn’t indulge in strong drink or sloth-producing drugs were to be born in the heaven of the 33 gods, and they would say, ‘Oh, let us enjoy the sense pleasures here for a couple of days, and then we’ll go see Prince Payasi.’ And were they to come back, what would happen?”
“Oh, we would be long dead, venerable sir, and so we would not hear from them.”
“So why do you keep saying that there is no fruit for acts of good and evil?”
“Venerable sir, suppose there is an evildoer, one who has done many horrible things, and I were to say to my men, ‘Take this man and kill him very slowly, and we shall watch carefully to see if we can see his soul come out.’ They do this, but we don’t see his soul emerging. So I say to them, ‘Turn him face down, turn him on his side, on the other side, stand him up, stand him on his head, thump him with your fist, hit him with sticks, shake him, and maybe we can see his soul emerging.’ No matter what we do, we never see a soul emerging.”
“Well, Prince, I will give you a parable. Some people can learn from parables. Once there was a trumpeter who took his trumpet, a conch shell, and went to the border country. Upon coming to a village, he stood in the village center, blew his trumpet three times, and then, putting it on the ground, sat down to one side. Then, Prince, these border folks came out to say, ‘What was that sound? Where did it come from? It’s so sweet, so intoxicating, so compelling, so captivating.’ They addressed the trumpeter and asked him about this, and he said, ‘This trumpet is where these sounds come from.’ So they laid the trumpet on its back, crying, ‘Speak, Mr. Trumpet, speak!’ But the trumpet never uttered a sound. Then they turned it face down, on its side, on the other side, stood it up, stood it on its head, thumped it with their fist, hit it with sticks, and no matter what they did, crying, ‘Speak, Mr. Trumpet, speak!’ the trumpet never uttered a sound. And then the trumpeter thought, ‘What fools these border folks are, how stupidly they search for the sound of a trumpet.’ And he picked up the trumpet, put it to his lips, and blew it three times and went away. The border folks thought, ‘Oh, it seems the trumpet is accompanied by man, by effort, and by the wind, and then it makes the sound. And when it’s not accompanied by man, effort, and the wind, it makes no sound.’ In the same way, you search in a way where you cannot find a soul leaving a body. Please consider there is another world, etc.”
“Whatever you say, Reverend Kassapa, I still think there’s no other world. Even though you say this, Reverend Kassapa, I still will not give up my opinion. King Pasenadi of Kosala knows my opinions, and so do kings abroad. If I give it up, they will say, ‘What a fool Payasi is, how stupid. He grasps at wrong views.’ I will stick with this view out of anger, contempt, and spite.”
“Well, Prince, I will give you a parable. A great caravan of a thousand carts was traveling from east to west, and wherever they went, they rapidly consumed all the grass and the wood and the water. Now, this caravan had two leaders, each in charge of 500 carts, and they thought, ‘This is a caravan of a thousand carts, and wherever we go, we use up all the supplies. Perhaps we should divide the caravan into two groups of 500 carts each.’ And they did so. Then one of the leaders collected plenty of grass and firewood and water and set off. And after two or three days’ journey, they saw a red-eyed man driving towards them. His hair was wet, he had a wreath of water lilies around his neck, he was driving a donkey chariot whose wheels were splashed with mud. On seeing this man, the leader said, ‘Where do you come from, sir?’ ‘From such and such.’ ‘And where are you going?’ ‘To so and so. Has there been much rainfall in the jungle ahead?’ ‘Oh yes, there’s been a great deal of rain in the jungle ahead. The roads are well watered, there is plenty of grass, wood, and water. Throw away the grass, firewood, and water that you’ve already got. You will make rapid progress with lightly laden carts, and your draft oxen will not be tired.’ The caravan leader told the carters what the man had said, ‘Throw away the grass, the firewood, and the water.’ And they did so. But at the first camping place, they did not find any grass, firewood, or water, nor at the second, nor the third, or the fourth, or the fifth, or the sixth, or the seventh. And they all came to ruin and destruction. And whatever there was of them, men and cattle, they were all gobbled up by that yakkha10 spirit, and only their bones remained.
When the leader of the second caravan was sure the first caravan had gone forward far enough, he stocked up with plenty of grass, firewood, and water. And after two or three days’ journey, this leader saw a red-eyed man coming towards them in a chariot. He was wearing a garland of water lilies around his neck, he had wet hair, and his donkey chariot was splattered with mud. That red-eyed man advised him to throw away the water, the firewood, all the provisions, and go lightly so their draft animals would not be tired out. But the leader said to the members of his caravan, ‘This man told us that we should throw away the grass, wood, and water we already have, but he is not one of our friends and relatives, so why should we trust him? Do not throw away the grass, firewood, and water. Let the caravan continue on its way with the goods we have brought and with the provisions that we have. Do not throw any of them away.’ The carters agreed and did as he said. And at the first camping place, they did not find any grass, firewood, or water, nor at the second, or the third, or the fourth, or the fifth, or the sixth, or the seventh. But when they came to the seventh, they saw the other caravan had come to ruin and destruction. They saw the bones of the men and the cattle that had been gobbled up by the yakkha spirit. Then the caravan leader said to the carters, ‘That caravan came to ruin and destruction through the folly of its leader. So now let us leave behind such goods as are of little value and take whatever is of greater value from the other caravan.’ And they did so. With that wise leader, they passed safely through the jungle.
In the same way, Prince Payasi, you will come to ruin and destruction if you foolishly and unwisely seek the other world in the wrong way. Those who think they can trust anything they hear are heading for ruin and destruction, just like those first 500 carters. Prince, give up this evil viewpoint. Give it up. Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time.”
“Even though you say this, venerable Kassapa, still I cannot bear to give up this evil opinion. King Pasenadi knows my opinion, and other kings also know it. If I were to give it up, they would say, ‘What a fool Prince Payasi is.’”
“Well then, Prince Payasi, I will give you a parable. Once there was a swineherd who was going from his own village to another, and there he saw a heap of dry dung that had been thrown away. And he thought, ‘There’s a lot of dry dung somebody’s thrown away. It would be food for my pigs. How to carry it away?’ So he spread out his cloak, gathered up the dung, made it into a bundle, and put it on his head and went on his way. But on the way back to his village, a heavy shower of unseasonable rain arrived, and he went on his way, bespattered with oozing, dripping dung down to his fingertips. Those who saw him said, ‘You must be mad, you must be crazy! Why are you going along carrying that load of dung that’s oozing and dripping all over you down to your fingertips?’ But the swineherd replied, ‘You’re the ones who are mad, you don’t understand. You’re the crazy ones. This stuff is food for my pigs.’ Prince, you are just like the dung carrier in my parable. Give up this evil viewpoint. Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering.”
“Even though you say this, Reverend Kassapa, I still cannot bear to give up this evil opinion because King Pasenadi knows my opinion. If I give it up, he’ll think I’m a fool. Other kings know my opinion. If I give it up, they will say, ‘What a fool Prince Payasi is.’”
“Well, Prince, I will give you a parable. Some wise people learn from a parable. Once, the inhabitants of a certain neighborhood migrated away, and one man said to his friend, ‘Come along, let’s go to that neighborhood. We might find something valuable.’ His friend agreed, so they went to that district and came to the village street, and they saw a pile of hemp that had been thrown away. And the first one said, ‘There’s some hemp. You make a bundle and I’ll make a bundle, and we’ll carry it off.’ And the other agreed, and they did so. Then, coming to another street, they found some hemp thread. And the first said, ‘This pile of hemp thread is just what we wanted the hemp for. Let’s throw away our bundle of hemp and pick up a load of hemp thread each.’ But the second guy said, ‘I brought this bundle of hemp a long way, and it’s well tied up. This will do for me. Do as you like.’ So his companion threw away the hemp and made a bundle of hemp thread. They came to another village street, and there they found some hemp cloth. The first said, ‘This pile of hemp cloth is just what we wanted the hemp or the hemp thread for. You throw away your load of hemp, and I’ll throw away my load of hemp thread, and we’ll go with this load of hemp cloth.’ But the other replied as before, ‘I have come a long way with this bundle. It’s well tied up. You do what you want, I’ll keep this.’ And so the other threw away his hemp thread and took the hemp cloth. In another part of the village, they saw a pile of flax, and then linen thread, and then linen cloth, and then cotton, and cotton thread, and cotton cloth, and then iron, and then copper, and tin, and lead, and silver, and finally gold. And the first one said, ‘This pile of gold is just what we wanted the hemp, the hemp thread, hemp cloth, flax, linen thread, linen cloth, cotton, cotton thread, cotton cloth, iron, copper, tin, lead, and silver for. You throw away your load of hemp, and I’ll throw away my load of silver, and we’ll both go on with a load of gold each.’ But the second man said, ‘I brought this load of hemp a long way, and it’s tied up really nice. This will do for me. You do as you like.’ So his companion threw away the load of silver and took the load of gold. And then they came back to their own village. And the one who brought the load of hemp gave no pleasure to his parents, to his wife, to his children, to his friends, or his colleagues, and did not even get any joy or happiness from it for himself. But the one who came back with a load of gold pleased his parents, his wife, his children, his friends, and colleagues, and he derived joy and happiness from it for himself. Prince, you speak just like the hemp bearer. Give up this evil view. Do not let it cause you misfortune and suffering for a long time.”
And then Prince Payasi laughed, and he said, “I was pleased and delighted with the Reverend Kassapa’s first parable, but I wanted to hear his quick-witted replies to questions because I thought he was a worthy debate opponent. Excellent, venerable Kassapa, excellent! As if someone were to set up what had been knocked down, or to point out the way to one who had got lost, or to bring an oil lamp into a dark place so that those with eyes could see what was there, just so the Reverend Kassapa has taught the Dhamma in various ways. I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha. May the Reverend Kassapa accept me this day forth as a lay follower, as long as life shall last.”
And then Prince Payasi said, “Reverend Kassapa, I want to make a great sacrifice. Instruct me, Reverend Kassapa, how this sacrifice will be to my lasting benefit and happiness.”
“Prince, when a sacrifice is made and many animals are killed, this will not be for your lasting benefit and happiness. This is like a farmer who goes into the forest with plow and seed, and there in an untilled place with poor soil, where the stumps had not been uprooted, sows low-quality seeds that have been rotting, ruined by the wind and heat, stale, and are just not embedded properly in the soil, and it doesn’t rain. Would those seeds germinate and develop? Would the farmer get an abundant crop?”
“No, Venable Kassapa.”
“Well then, Prince, it is the same with a sacrifice in which animals are killed. But if you can sacrifice something that is of great profit, it will bring great benefits. Suppose a farmer goes into a forest with plow and seed, and there in a well-tilled place with good soil from which the stumps have been uprooted, were to sow excellent seeds, and the rain god would send proper showers from time to time. Would those seeds germinate, and would the farmer get an abundant crop?”
“He would, Reverend Kassapa.”
“In the same way, a sacrifice in which no animals are slain, then the sacrifice is of great fruit and profit. It is brilliant and of great radiance.”
Then Prince Payasi established a charity for ascetics and brahmans, wayfarers, beggars, and the needy. But the food he provided was broken rice with sour gruel, and the clothing was itchy and of low quality. There was a young Brahman called Uttara who was put in charge of the distribution, and he said, “Through this charity, I’ve become associated with Prince Payasi in this world, but not in the next.”
Prince Payasi heard these words, so he sent for him and asked, “Why have you said that?”
“Lord, you give food that’s so unappetizing you wouldn’t touch it with your foot. You give clothing so rough and unappealing that you wouldn’t even walk on it. You’re kind and gentle to us. How can we reconcile such kindness and gentleness with unkindness and roughness?”
“Well then, Uttara, you arrange to supply food as I eat and clothes such as I wear.”
“Very good, Lord.” And Uttara did so.
Because Prince Payasi had established his charity, his sacrifice, not with his own hands and without proper concern, like something casually tossed aside, after death he was reborn in the lowest of the heavens—because at least he did establish a charity. But Uttara, the Brahman who took care of it, was born in the heaven of the 33 gods.
Now, a monk, Venable Gavampati, was accustomed to going to the lowest of the heavens for his afternoon nap, and there he encountered Prince Payasi, who said, “I am the one who used to say there is no other world, there are no spontaneously born beings, there’s no fruit of good and evil deeds. But I was converted from that evil view by Venable Kumara Kassapa, and I have been reborn in the lowest of the heavens.”
And then the monk asked, “But where is the young Brahman Uttara who was in charge of the distribution?”
“He gave to the charity ungrudgingly and has been born in the company of the 33 gods. But I, who gave grudgingly, have been born in the lowest of the heavens. Venable sir, when you return to Earth, tell people to give ungrudgingly. Inform them of the way that Prince Payasi and the young Brahman have been reborn.”
And so the monk, upon returning, said, “You should give ungrudgingly, with your own hands, with proper concern, not carelessly. But Prince Payasi did not do that, and at the breaking up of the body, he was born in the lowest of the heavens. But the young Brahman Uttara, who gave ungrudgingly with his own hands, with proper concern, and not carelessly, was born in the company of the 33 gods.”
So this is quite a different sutta than most of the ones that you would hear, but I think it has things to teach us. The first thing I want to say is I don’t know what happens after we die. I’ve got no memory of ever having died. I’ve got no data that I figure is reliable. I’ve heard lots of stories about what happens after we die, so I don’t know. Maybe there’s another world, there are spontaneously born beings. I do know that actions have consequences. And so, given that, I’m not going to say that this proves there’s life after death or anything like that. I shared this one so that you get a sense of some of the stories that are in the suttas, some of the ways that people’s immortality projects are addressed.
You wouldn’t find the Buddha talking about life after death like this. In fact, in what I consider to be the most profound sutta in the Canon, which is Samyutta Nikaya 12.15, the Kaccāna Gotta Sutta,11 the Buddha says, “Don’t think in terms of existence, don’t think in terms of non-existence. One with Right View does not take a stand about myself, my soul, my atman.” So the question, “Will I exist after death or will I not exist after death?”—the Buddha is saying, “Don’t go there.” You’re talking in terms of existence and non-existence. Instead, what he says is, “Look at the world in terms of dependent origination.12 Everything is arising dependent on other things.” Instead of things exist or don’t exist.
The example I give is Santa Claus. Does Santa Claus exist or does Santa Claus not exist? Well, if he exists and lives at the North Pole, he’s in trouble with all the global warming. But if he does not exist, how come if you have a misbehaving three-year-old, you can say, “Santa Claus is watching,” and boom, you get instant good behavior, at least in the weeks before Christmas? And Santa Claus rides at the end of a Christmas parade, and he sells Coca-Cola. So Santa Claus is a concept. Everything is a concept. Your existence now and your existence after you die are both concepts. And the Buddha says, “Step beyond concepts and try and see things in terms of everything arises dependent on other things, in terms of dependent origination.”
Now, I also like this sutta because of the stories and the parables. The ones that are basically proving that Prince Payasi really has no reason not to believe in future worlds are interesting and well thought out. But the three I like best is after he says, “Well, if I give up my view, people will laugh at me.” We often operate like that. We cling to our views and opinions. This is a lot of what’s wrong in this country today. People get a view and they get locked into it. And even though something else comes along, they have their view tied up on their head, and even though it’s raining and dripping all down on them, they’re not going to let it go.
There are also far too many people basically taking their views, their opinions, from untrustworthy sources, like the first caravan leader did. We really need to pay very careful attention to where we’re getting our information. Because the Buddha didn’t say you shouldn’t have views; he said all views should be held lightly. But having a wrong view and holding it lightly is liable to lead you in the wrong direction. You want to have right views and hold those lightly, and hold them only so long as a better view doesn’t come along. And I think this is what the parable with the two 500-cart caravans is teaching us. And the next two are, yeah, it’s very important to let go of the view that you have now if a better view comes along. After all, if you’re not enlightened at this moment, you are definitely going to have to change your mind to make progress on the spiritual path. If you’re clinging to where you are right now, you’re never going to get anywhere else.
So, that’s what I’ve got for tonight.
Are there questions or comments?
Audience Member: This one’s kind of an interesting one. From the first that I ran across here, which as I said was in a podcast that I think you were doing on dependent origination. Until tonight, I’ve always been struck by your generosity. I mean, seriously, look at this website that you put together, all kinds of good stuff, books you’ve written. And so the result of all that generosity on your part is that I look at your face when you’re reading these stories to us, and my heart just feels to overflowing.
Leigh Brasington: Well, thank you. Thank you. My parents were Depression-era, and although we had an upper-middle-class existence, I grew up thinking we were poor. And so I wasn’t generous to start with. And I thank a number of friends for teaching me generosity. And yeah, it’s been really nice to be in a position where I can afford to be generous, where I have enough and can share enough. It’s made my life a lot nicer. So thank you for that. And I’ll mention I have another book coming out. It’ll be out in May, and it’ll be another one I’m giving away for free.
Audience Member: If I can follow on then just for a second, I think that if one were to look at your countenance, Leigh, that one would say you have a glowing, bright countenance. You do. This, of course, it’s difficult in our society to accept compliments, you know. On the other hand, I think there’s some value in it. I mean, I think there’s some value in genuinely expressing appreciation and also learning to accept it when somebody else is appreciative, although I found that that’s hard myself. But you do. I just look at you, you’re smiling, you’re happy. You know, if there was an ad for the Buddhist way and you were to be on the ad, you know, you would do a lot better than a lot of people I see on social media trying to promote their products.
Leigh Brasington: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, this practice does have very, very powerful benefits. I mean, it’s changed me enormously.
Audience Member: So I hesitated to say anything because it’s just pertinent to my own experience today. And I’m from a very scientific kind of mindset, you could say. And that’s what has been, I guess, so appealing about the way you present things, Leigh, and I really appreciate it. And today, just coincidence, one has to say, but just in the past two hours before this talk, I’ve been engaged in discussions with two different, separate individuals about the topics that you covered today. Which I was like having that kind of experience where it’s like, I can’t believe it. I can’t believe that that just happened. First was the whole thing that Payasi brings up of like not being able to have credence for this idea of like karmic consequences showing up in the next birth. So this person was bringing up their discomfort in both Buddhism and Hinduism, actually. He’s also a Hindu like me, where these ideas are held on to very strongly. This idea that if you’re born a certain way, it’s because of something you did in a past lifetime. And so we were just having this discussion, and I couldn’t add much besides that, yes, I share this person’s sort of sense of dismay. A little bit, like at times it feels like blaming the victim.
Leigh Brasington: It is. Yeah.
Audience Member: So that was one. And then the next hour, there was this whole concept of giving either with graciousness or without. That was a smaller discussion, but still, just the difference between the two. I’m just amazed. And what you quoted, I’ll look at that one, the Samyutta Nikaya 12.15, is that what you said?
Leigh Brasington: Yeah. On my website, I have multiple translations of that sutta side by side, and the Pali. So if you go to my website and click on suttas and then look for multiple translations on a single page, you can find that sutta. But going back to karma, the Buddha explicitly says that not everything is a result of karma. In the Samyutta Nikaya 36, and I don’t remember the number right off, somewhere in that book, which is on vedana (feeling), there’s a sutta where a Brahman comes to the Buddha and says, “Venerable sir, I say that all that one feels is a result of karma.” And the Buddha says, “Not so. There are multiple causes of feeling. Some are due to winds, some to phlegm, some to bile, and some to the three being out of balance.” In other words, some things that you feel are due to your health. Some things that you feel are due to people behaving badly—politicians, thieves, people doing unwholesome things. Some of what you feel is due to accidents, and some of what you feel is due to acts of nature. And the eighth is karma. So the Buddha is saying that karma only explains one-eighth of what’s going on. Remember that horrible tsunami the day after Christmas back in, when was that, 2004, something like that? And I heard people saying, “Oh, it was their karma. I wonder what they did bad to have that all that happened to them.” No, it was an act of nature. So anyone trying to explain why good things happen to bad people or bad things happen to good people because of karma is missing what the Buddha was actually teaching—that there are other reasons that things happen. Sometimes good things happen to bad people because the bad people were evil and did evil things and stole a bunch of stuff and got away with it. I look at the Iraq War. You know, that was a really bad thing. And the instigators of that war, the Bush administration, seems like most of them got away with it. But there were certainly evil consequences to that war: the destruction of Iraq, the destabilization in the Middle East, the rise of ISIS. Yeah, lots of evil results of that action. It may not be perpetrated on the ones who actually instigated it, but certainly there were evil consequences to that action. So yeah, anytime somebody says they don’t believe in karma because bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, they’ve missed the point. And the Buddha is very explicit with that. And if you give me just a second, I can probably even give you the reference to that. I have some sutta study guides, and in the Samyutta study guide, I can look for it. It’s Samyutta Nikaya 36.21.
And the other thing, the generosity. In the suttas, it talks about there’s princely giving, there’s queenly giving, and there’s kingly giving. And so princely giving, you give, but maybe it’s like Prince Payasi, you don’t give your best, you give not so good. Queenly giving would be you give good, nice stuff. And kingly giving, you give your best. So yeah, the levels are there. So can you be generous such that you’re fully generous? You’re really letting go. After all, the whole of the spiritual path is about letting go. As my teacher Ayya Khema13 said, “There’s nothing to get on the spiritual path. It’s all about letting go.”
Audience Member: So there is a line in the Metta Sutta14 that I’ve always really liked. And in the translation that they use at Abhayagiri, “This is said to be the sublime abiding: by not holding to fixed views, the pure-hearted one of clarity of vision, being freed from all sense desires, is not born again into this world.” So I’d like to give you my interpretation, not that I feel that it’s so outstanding, but as a starting point. It sort of goes like this: if in this moment you do not hold to fixed views, you’re pure-hearted, you’re freed from sense desires and so forth, in this moment, then you’re not being born back into the world. So I sort of relate this to dependent origination. And to go a little bit further, in my point of view, first of all, if you’re holding to fixed views, then it’s unlikely that you have much chance of seeing beyond them, sort of as you said in the story tonight. In order to see something, you have to be pure-hearted in several respects. One is to simply follow many of the precepts. Otherwise, as a matter of fact, I sort of feel like the full path is there to free one from wasted energy, so that one can concentrate. And also pure-hearted in the sense that it requires some effort and some caring, deep caring, actually. And then likewise, being freed from sense desires. If you’re totally bound up in… I have some difficulty with that one. I see nothing wrong with senses, but if you’re totally overboard on your senses, then likewise, it’s going to be hard to see much beyond that. And then finally, at that moment, potentially you have the ability to see clearly what is arising. And in seeing it like that, you are just instantaneously—not forever, this is not a one-off and then you’re good to go—but in that instance, you’re sort of freed from all the accumulated crap that can keep you from seeing what’s going on, and you have a chance to see. And so in that moment, you’re not being born into the world.
Leigh Brasington: Yeah, this is a very good look at those. It’s interesting, though, to look at multiple translations. And if you want to look at multiple translations, I have 21 translations on the link that I just put into the chat, side by side. And so you can see what people are saying. You said the one you had the most difficulty with was “being freed from all sense desires.” I would not say that’s really what’s there. Two other translations from Andy Olendzki: “Guarding away greed for sensual desires,” and from Khantipalo: “And greed for sensual desires expelled,” which is somewhat different from being freed from all sensual desires. So if you really want to know what a sutta has to say and you don’t know Pali, get as many translations as you can and take a look at it. And so here are 21 translations side by side, and you’ll find that some of the stuff, yeah, it’s this way in half of them, and it’s that way, which is totally different, in the other half. And so you really don’t know, and you’re going to need a Pali scholar. But some of the others, like right here, the “being freed from all sense desires,” I do not think is an accurate translation, because if you look at multiple of them, you’ll find that that’s not quite right. But the gist of what you said is there. We need to not hold to fixed views, right? You can have views, but they shouldn’t be fixed views, and they shouldn’t be blown around by the wind either. You know, if you’re going to change your mind, it needs to be for a good reason. We do need to be pure-hearted. Andy Olendzki has “endowed with insight and integrity,” and Khantipalo has “is virtuous with perfect insight.” So we need to act in a way, we need to keep the precepts, we need to be ethical, and we’ve got to have the insights into what’s really going on. We’ve got to have wisdom. And then, “greed for sensual desires expelled.” And then the last one, “one would not be born again into a womb,” “is not born again into this world,” “surely comes no more to any womb.” There are lots of ways this is interpreted, but they’re all taking it pretty literally. “Never again is reborn a creature,” “assuredly does not again come to a womb,” “shall never again be born in a womb.” The word “womb” is in there in the Pali. So, you can interpret it any way you want. As I said, I don’t know what happens after we die, but certainly you would not be caught up in the things of the world in the same way as you would be if you had not managed to do what the three lines above it indicate. And I will be teaching a course for the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies on what the suttas actually say about the Brahma Viharas15 in November, so maybe you want to sign up for that course as well.
Audience Member: Thank you. I’ve been sort of carrying around since last week the whole discourse on, well not discourse in that sense, but when we talked about mudita,16 what’s real mudita and what’s not real mudita. And this talk about generosity to me kind of smacks of the same kind of thing. I don’t know, I’ve spent the week in this almost scrupulous process of looking at every action and then trying to see, you know, how altruistic is it or not. And because it was very, I don’t know, it hit me pretty hard last week, the idea of like, if your child gets straight A’s, you’re totally delighted, but if it’s the next-door neighbor’s child… I mean, as an example. And I thought, well, to what, you know, are we, is that what we’re striving to do? To be completely, I mean, the pure of heart, you know. And as you know, I come from the Christian tradition, so all of this lines up exactly, you know, “Blessed are the pure in heart.” But the danger of scrupulosity, like in Christianity, we have grace, so that’s an enormous relief because no one can keep the letter of the law all the way through. But in a strange way, I feel like in practicing Buddhism, that is kind of what’s required. Like keeping the precepts, I mean, I’m sort of leaning… so the mudita thing really stuck in my craw in the sense I thought, well, maybe I never feel mudita. And before you talked about it last week, I felt that of all the Brahma Viharas, for me, that was the easiest. So now I’m kind of… so if you could just say a little more about that.
Leigh Brasington: So mudita is rejoicing with those who are rejoicing. Simple as that. If somebody’s having good fortune, you’re happy they’re having good fortune. That’s it. You’re not envious, because that’s the opposite. And you’re not identified. Okay, so all those Eagles fans who were having a riot in Philadelphia, yeah, that was not mudita. They were very much identified. They were rejoicing, and I’m happy they were rejoicing, even though they were identified and their team won. But if there’s pleasure around, people are enjoying it, then mudita is to rejoice along with them. It’s as simple as that.
Audience Member: But do we need to…
Leigh Brasington: Let me do one more thing. Ayya Khema said there’s no grace in Buddhism, very sternly. And there’s not. But there’s no expectation that you’re perfect, right? So remember, the precepts are phrased, “I undertake the training to refrain from whatever wrongdoing there is.” It’s not “Thou shalt not.” And so if you do “Thou shalt not,” you have to have grace. But if you do “I undertake the training, I’m going to do my best to not kill, not steal, not commit sexual misconduct,” and I’m going to work at that, that’s good enough. You don’t need grace.
Audience Member: Yeah, I agree completely. I don’t see any grace in Buddhism. It’s very graceful, but yeah, different meaning entirely. But I’m just wondering what degree, like with generosity, for example, because I’m embarking right now on a year-long study of the paramis,17 and so we’re starting out with generosity. And it’s been kind of paired up with gratitude as the flip side. And gratitude for me is a no-brainer. Like, I can think of gratitude constantly. And by the way, I wanted to, I think probably on behalf of everybody else in this Zoom room, completely echo what Joe said earlier. I’ve always loved seeing your face. It cheers me up, even when I’m, like tonight, under the weather. But with generosity, the question is like, to what degree… you know, because the ideal generosity is that you’re happy before you give, then you’re happy while you’re giving, then you’re happy afterwards having given. And that’s the picture of true generosity that has this… so you do benefit yourself insofar as it brings you happiness, generosity. So it’s this reciprocal relationship. But again, like quoting from the Christian tradition, it says, “God loves a cheerful giver.” So the emphasis is, you know, don’t give begrudgingly and don’t be dragging your heels. And I feel like, like you, I was raised with Depression-era parents, and I thought at any moment we were going to be completely without a roof over our heads. It was just that scarcity mentality. So I feel like for me, for generosity, I need to always kind of go above what might be a kind of scruple of thinking, “Can I really do this?” or “Is the person worthy?” You know what I mean? To what extent should we try to practice generosity even if we’re not feeling it, for example? Do you know what I’m driving at?
Leigh Brasington: Yeah, and that one I can’t answer. You’re going to have to figure that out on your own.
Audience Member: Fair enough.
Leigh Brasington: I mean, what you want is to feel it and practice it. But if you’re not feeling it, maybe the right thing to train yourself to feel it is to do it. I mean, that’s what I had to do. It was like, okay, yeah, I’ll give whatever, you know, my friend doesn’t have enough money, so I’ll buy the dinner, you know, whatever. And just doing the stuff, even if I wasn’t a cheerful giver, just being generous and seeing the consequences of that and how it helped people out, I think is part of what moved me in the direction of being more generous. So I wouldn’t say that you should suppress your generosity because you’re not feeling it, but you also should work to feel it. In other words, do your best to get to the place where you’re actually feeling generous when you’re being generous. And it’s a practice, just like not killing, not stealing, etc. It’s a practice. We undertake the training. And perhaps like meditation itself, it may sometimes work better than others, but yes, definitely we just persist. Ayya Khema said you should start every period of meditation with gratitude. And by starting with gratitude, it helps with the generosity because, as you said, they’re really flip sides. You know, people have done really good things for you. Yeah, I’m going to try and pay it forward. I’m appreciative of what people have done. I’m going to see if I can pay it forward. So it works really well together. And she also says start every meditation period with some metta. So some gratitude and metta at the start.
Sutta: A discourse or sermon of the Buddha or one of his disciples. ↩
Mahasatipatthana Sutta: “The Great Discourse on the Establishing of Mindfulness,” one of the most important texts in the Pali Canon on the practice of meditation. ↩
Kumara Kassapa: An eminent monk and disciple of the Buddha, known for his skill in debate and teaching. ↩
Mahakassapa: One of the most revered of the Buddha’s senior disciples, who presided over the First Buddhist Council after the Buddha’s passing. ↩
Vinaya: The disciplinary code and rules of conduct for Buddhist monks and nuns. ↩
Kosala: An ancient and powerful kingdom in northern India during the time of the Buddha. ↩
King Pasenadi: The ruler of the kingdom of Kosala and a devoted lay follower of the Buddha. ↩
Arahant: A “worthy one”; an individual who has attained full enlightenment (Nibbana) and is freed from the cycle of rebirth. ↩
Devas: Celestial, god-like beings who inhabit heavenly realms. They are still subject to karma and rebirth. ↩
Yakkha: A broad class of nature-spirits in Buddhist mythology, often depicted as powerful beings that can be either benevolent or malevolent. ↩
Kaccāna Gotta Sutta: A discourse in the Samyutta Nikaya (SN 12.15) where the Buddha explains the middle way between the extremes of existence and non-existence, teaching dependent origination as the correct view. ↩
Dependent Origination (Paticcasamuppāda): The core Buddhist doctrine of causality, which states that all phenomena arise in dependence on other phenomena. Nothing exists independently. ↩
Ayya Khema: A highly respected German-born Buddhist nun (1923-1997) and a renowned meditation teacher. ↩
Metta Sutta: The Buddha’s discourse on loving-kindness, found in the Khuddakapatha and Sutta Nipata. ↩
Brahma Viharas: The four “divine abodes” or sublime states: loving-kindness (metta), compassion (karuna), sympathetic joy (mudita), and equanimity (upekkha). ↩
Mudita: Sympathetic or appreciative joy; the practice of rejoicing in the happiness and good fortune of others, without envy or identification. ↩
Paramis: The ten perfections or virtues cultivated by a bodhisatta on the path to full enlightenment. They include generosity, virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, loving-kindness, and equanimity. ↩